Transcript Summary
12 years before that in the Bay Area, Circle Star, did a lot of show work, did a lot of teaching.
Stan Kenton Orchestra, Army, Presidio, I don't know all that stuff.
Carl Leach.
So, the, okay, so, this lecture is just about playing with others, playing in a section, that type of thing.
I left some space on these things, probably not enough to jot a little notes down as we go through and describe it.
My lectures are open if there's a question that arises as we go through it.
I want to hear it then, I don't want to hear it at the end.
Let's talk about it while we're talking about that particular subject.
I want to be off at the end and then have some other thing that we'd already covered come up.
So, just do that for me, just if there's a question as we go through it, let me know.
So, this is kind of like a basic sketch here.
This stuff is like survival type of stuff.
Right now, for you guys, especially you young players, that's one of the failures, that's one of the points I put down here on major points of failures for young players.
The actual scene today is you don't have a lot of the training ground that we had back in my days.
And I was like kind of at the end of it myself, as far as like having a lot of big bands touring around the country,
which a lot of young players went to kind of get their craft together and then they would come off of it and get into show work, studio work, etc.
So, but it's not to say that there aren't handles for that solution.
It's just a little bit tougher now.
And playing together with people is like a real big out point today.
So, that's the reason why I usually did, I have like three different type of lectures I give every year.
And this one's like been pretty consistent because I feel like it's a point that never gets addressed.
And it's like the guy gets his stuff together and then never quite makes it in the field and he doesn't understand.
And there's other things that you need to do and be aware of.
You know, not every gig that you play on and you're going to play, not every gig that you play on and you're going to play a section.
So, I mean, it's like, you know, when Paul gets his thing in there, his is like culture shock kind of a thing.
Because he kind of lets you know a little bit what it's going to be like to be in a studio.
And well, I tell you, sometimes when you're getting into these situations that you aren't used to, it's like, it's always good for a loop sometimes.
So, anyway, hopefully this data will help you in speeding that up.
So, starting at the top, the league or first player rules is number one.
Every note is important.
There aren't some that are worth five bucks and other ones that are worth 25 cents.
Every note is important.
We've talked about it a couple of times where as anybody ever like picked up a chart or a piece of music or a classical etude or something like that and there's that note.
It's either the last note or there's that note.
You know, it's like some high note or something or kind of a hard figure or something like that.
And when I was young, I usually spent the better part of the chart worrying about that last note.
And I always missed it.
Or I was in such grief by the time I got there because I'd worried about it so much that when I played it, it was so efforty that it didn't feel good.
So, just take each note as it happens.
It's like there's a line that says, do what you're doing while you're doing it.
You know, play each note as it happens.
If there's a note that you can't make or there's some problem, if you haven't quite got your craft together to hit that note, don't worry about it.
Just, you know, do the best you can on it.
But, you know, don't sweat it.
It's better to miss that one note and play the rest of the chart really well than scuffle along in the whole chart waiting for that bomb at the end.
Okay?
Now, consistent style would be the next one.
So, a lead player, a principal player in a symphony, whatever.
The symphony players have, and Dave will be here during the week telling you about that, there's still, there's styles that they have to conform to.
There's certain ways of playing things that are already established.
It's a little bit, it's more liberal in a jazz field or a show field because it's up to the guy that's playing lead.
He can interpret it the way he feels like it.
There's some confining, like, barriers there that kind of keep you channeled in classical.
But still, the principal chair still has the responsibility of style.
Okay?
And this would include proper dynamics, real obvious stuff.
Phrasing.
Consistent phrasing, like, don't change all the time.
Like, if you're going to play, let's say you've got a repeating eight-bar phrase.
Okay, so the repeating eight-bar phrase, there's something going on.
Let's say you made, like, you slurred a couple of notes that weren't really slurred.
The other guys didn't make it in the section.
They didn't catch it because maybe they played it right.
I tell you, you better play it exactly the same way the second time you went through because it's those guys' job to follow you.
And they're, like, playing along on, you know, like, they aren't necessarily saying, well, gee, what a jerk, he missed that thing.
Well, let's hope he gets it the second time.
What they're saying is, wow, this is the way this guy's playing it.
Okay, here comes again.
That's the way we're going to play it.
You have to be consistent in your style.
Don't change it.
Claude will probably tell you a Ewan Racy story if he hasn't already.
Has he told that story to you?
Okay.
Anyway, there was, who was it?
Was it Tom Holden?
I think it was Tom Holden.
They were playing with Ewan Racy.
Ewan Racy is an old guard of Hollywood studio.
And Ewan was playing in the section.
And per being a proper section player, he followed the lead player to the nth degree.
And Tom made a mistake on a note.
And the second time through, Ewan played exactly that same thing under him.
Except this time, Tom played it the way he should have played it.
And it just proves a point.
Well, I tell you, you have to have a really good, consistent style.
Because if you've got good section players under you,
they're going to do their best to follow you because that's their job.
So the phrasing, don't change it all the time.
Don't, like, do a different style.
Play this note long and then the next time play it short.
Changing different types of feels through a chart.
You never want to do that.
If you've got a certain chart where it's kind of like even eighth interpretation through the thing,
boy, you'd better stick with it the whole time.
You don't just say, well, geez, on this one I think I'm going to do da-da-da-da-da-da-da and change the whole style.
I'm going to have some of the guys come up here and play a few tunes
just to show you different ways of interpreting things and what you have to do sometimes.
Now, pitch from the bass.
And it's not is possible.
That's a typo. It's if possible.
When I was younger, it seemed like the music programs hadn't quite got chopped to hell.
And the younger players were actually a better caliber earlier.
And now it's not the case.
So like if you're a young player, the if possible thing was added in.
Sometimes younger bass players haven't quite got their craft together and stuff like that.
But generally if you're going out on your job, I always get my pitch from the bass player.
And that's most jobs will do that.
Now, if there's jobs of long duration that you're coming and sitting in like shows in Las Vegas,
it's a different game if like Larry Sousa let me do a play, Les Miserables,
about a year and a half or something like that.
Anyway, on shows of long duration, I tell you by about the second or third month,
the orchestra's in a groove.
Even though it doesn't say something on the page, by that time they're playing a certain way
because of some reason that you don't need to figure out.
At that point in time, you come in and play that style, that pitch, whatever it is,
that's already established there because it'll throw the band off.
A lot of times I would be asked to sub for the Moulin Rouge show.
And I actually ended up subbing for most of the shows in town.
But when you go in there, golly, you see like two eighth notes and a quarter note,
and it would be played like way dragging behind the beat sometimes,
not even with the tempo anymore.
Sometimes there would be like the last note, like you go da, da, da, just a pop on the end.
And the lead trumpet player after over the years, probably just to make sure he got the note,
it was like da, da, da.
But meantime, everybody else was like turning their charts, getting ready for the next tune.
It was like so long.
You've got to play it that way because you'll throw the band off
if you don't interpret things the way you're coming in and filling that spot.
Does that kind of make sense to everybody?
You're with me?
Okay, so now setting up a section, this would be the ideal scene.
In relationship to the rhythm section, this would be the ideal scene.
Sometimes the first row, depending on if it's an older style,
Diana Wool jazz band, usually the fifth, everything's reversed on the top line.
You see where the lead's in the middle, second is over to your left, and third, fourth, fifth.
You can reverse the whole thing.
Sometimes in some bands, the jazz player is the fifth part.
In a lot of the bands that I was playing in years ago, the second trumpet player was the jazz player.
And then it evolved to the fifth and fourth players, depending on how many parts were written.
But anyway, you want to always balance.
You see the balance where you go one, two, three, four, you know, it's like you keep going out this direction.
You don't go like lead two, three, and then four, five.
You want to hear those parts that are supporting the lead right around you.
Okay, and then if there's only four intersections, which is the second line, you would line it up first.
Second would be closer to the rhythm section, then third, and then fourth.
And then you can also, if set it up to where the lead player,
that's the third line where I actually wrote it out a different way that you can have the four players.
You can have the lead player, if you want to be closer to the rhythm section, that would be that point.
It would be the second one in, and then space it out accordingly.
Okay, and then it's got third, you know how you would do that.
Okay, so those are like the best solutions.
Now, I'm going to show you, there's a chain of command in an orchestra.
Let's go ahead and look at this.
And actually, first of all, I'm going to tell you guys what a groove is.
This is a beat, and we divide it into three parts.
How do you guys feel about, like, which side do you want to be the front of the beat?
Are we going this way, or are we going this way?
This is the front of the beat?
I don't care.
Okay, so this is one single beat enlarged a billion times, separated into thirds.
What actually creates a groove in an orchestra, or any band, or any small group,
or anything that you're doing, is the drums are the policemen.
They enforce the time.
They don't rush, they don't drag, they don't do anything.
They're the metronome of the band.
Okay?
The bass player is on the front edge of the beat.
It's like he always initiates pulse, and the bands, they go...
Have you ever played in a group where you kind of like, it's like your body starts moving too, you know?
Like you start feeling a little better, and it starts really moving.
That's when this thing starts working right.
This guy's keeping the time.
The bass player is just like, he's right there, just right there.
He's always like, just the shade of his.
And then the band is on the back part of the beat.
And that's what creates a groove.
Most of the times when you're playing lead, and you're wondering what's happening, and things are getting real tiring, is...
Larry.
Sorry, Carl.
Anyway.
Sometimes, especially with younger players, the drummer gets overwhelmed.
And he plays with the band.
The bass player usually doesn't know what the heck he's supposed to be doing, because he's never been taught this.
And he hasn't got the stick-to-it-iveness and the inner clock to keep right on the edge.
He usually plays here, or with the band.
And without you knowing it, the lead drummer player will always assume the responsibility of this person or this person.
And it's a drag. It's a real drag.
It's a point where you just don't realize it.
Like, for years and years of playing, I remember I'd be real tired at the end of the night.
You know, it felt like I was trying to help the band go.
And it was because I naturally, because I was supposed to be setting the style and stuff like that,
because these guys weren't doing their jobs, I had to take it over.
And you get real tired real fast.
So anyway, if you're ever in a time when this thing isn't happening,
and a bass player, most of the bass players that are coming up today, they don't know their responsibility,
be real polite about it. Just draw this little diagram.
Just say you're supposed to be here.
Tell the drummer where he's supposed to be so you can do your job. Yeah?
When you say tired, do you mean psychologically or physically?
Physically. I mean, it's an effort.
Why is it that much of a difference?
Are you playing louder or trying to be more assertive?
Yeah, you actually have to, you're asserting yourself more in playing stronger
because things aren't happening the way they're supposed to do.
It's almost like, well, there's some players that don't do it.
I mean, they don't have an awareness to do it.
But I mean, it's like, if these guys fail, boy, I tell you, it'll kill you.
If you get into a swing tune and the band's laying back a lot
and the drummer isn't a strong player, he'll go with you.
The bass player, he's usually lost, you know,
because he doesn't know where his thing is now.
And for him to keep pushing, if he knows that's what his responsibility is, he gets wiped out.
He finally ends up just going with the band,
in which case you'll always take over that responsibility.
It happens whether you want to or not.
You'll know something's going wrong.
Usually the conductor's waving his hands at that point in time.
He doesn't spot the out point either, and just you'll assume that.
So anyway, just so you know, down the line, and you don't get into any big headaches,
just spotlight, you know, just so you don't think, God, what's wrong with me?
I'm a lot tighter tonight than I was with that other gig I was playing.
That's probably what happened.
Another thing that could happen would be pitch.
I'll get into that in a little bit.
Okay, so the chain of command, you see the drums are responsible for the time,
the bass initiating the pulse and pitch.
And the end of the world's being postponed because of the lack of experienced bass players.
And then the lead trumpet player is responsible now.
This is the chain of command, the responsibilities in a larger group.
Pitch, style, and dynamic level.
Pitch, style, and dynamic level.
Now, if the music is going on and the trumpets aren't playing,
now it's the trombones and saxes playing,
the responsibility immediately goes down the line to the next person in the chain of command,
which would be the lead bone.
And then if the bones aren't playing, the dynamic level pitch,
all that stuff is assumed by the lead alto.
And it spreads out the section.
But it will always be, if the lead trumpet is playing,
that's the one that handles the pitch, style, and dynamic level.
Okay, that's actually how a big band functions.
If you don't abide by those rules, everybody has a certain hat, a certain post.
That's what makes them work well.
And it doesn't matter whether you're playing in a tenor band
or a very large jazz orchestra.
Dave, is there a chain of command with classical things,
or is it just when the brass section is playing?
Just when the brass section is playing.
Okay, so string players still rule the day.
Okay.
Edit that out.
So, okay, playing in a section.
I'd actually like the guys to come up and play a couple of tunes now,
and then I'll go on to what I consider the major points of failure for young players.
The reason I approached it on kind of a negative basis
is because if I can explain the out points,
you guys would understand immediately how to do it correctly.
Oh, you didn't get one?
Okay.
Let's say this is a studio job, a gig, whatever it is.
These guys just come in, they sit down, they're going to play.
Okay, on this particular tune, the way it's phrased,
they're going to interpret it a certain way.
One, two, one.
Okay, so we're going to start like a party for them.
There's a rhythm section in here.
You guys just mock up the rhythm section.
Okay, drums should be felt, not heard.
One, two, three, four, one.
Okay.
Okay.
Last two bars, that's the way to go.
Well, how do you order it?
Okay, so it's straight A's.
No swing.
Okay, last two bars.
One, two, one, two, three, four.
Now, there's points in here where he played a note short.
I don't know whether everybody caught it
because everybody's trying to remember what the commercial was.
It's like he played a couple notes short and nobody else hit.
Okay, and he punched another note that people didn't punch as much.
Okay, so now they get in the group.
They know what he's going to do.
They're starting to get hit, but how he's going to lay it down.
Let's go through it again, and it will be flawless.
Okay, one, two, one, two, three, four.
That was a lot tighter, wasn't it?
They were listening. They caught the other places. It was good.
There was actually another place, if you guys were paying attention, that it was not quite together.
But, I mean, that's how fast they get it together.
And if you're in a recording thing, like Paul does all the time,
I'll tell you, they're paying you megabucks for that studio.
They're paying megabucks.
They don't want to be screwing around all day long,
and the guy's saying, well, wait a minute, let's play this.
You know, you do it, you get out.
That's the way they want it done.
Now, you play lead on the same tune.
Okay, different guy.
And all these guys here, the section players,
actually, the section players are worth their weight in gold.
These guys, it's the hardest thing to do, to be able to play, read,
and still keep an ear on the lead player so that you interpret it the way he's going to do it.
And you all have to do this, like, in a millionth of a second.
Okay?
I forgot to say, you guys are going to learn this by lots of experience.
Don't panic.
It's not an overnight process.
But it's an awareness thing that I want you to understand,
because you getting into the field and being more successful faster
is just having these little tidbits, being a little bit ahead of the show.
Okay?
Okay, song.
New lead player.
God help us.
One, two, a one, two, three, four.
Great.
Okay.
Now, did anybody spot anything that time?
What?
Okay.
Edit that.
Okay.
Okay.
First of all, I want you to know a lead trumpet player is never wrong.
It's a neat position to be in, but I got another key phrase I'll say in a second.
They can never be wrong,
because they're the ones that are responsible for interpreting the thing.
If you don't play with them, you're the one that's going to get it.
Okay?
Now, my catching phrase on this is, I heard this from Dalton Smith years ago
after playing with Kenton, and we just finished playing the tune somewhere,
which was, like, so hard you can't believe it.
I mean, I've seen guys fall off the back of the stage, passing out trying to play it.
He looked over at me, and he said,
lead trumpet's a chanting job, sometimes quite lonely.
That would make more sense down the line.
Okay.
So, let's do, now we're going to do the same tune in Maraci field.
Okay?
Yeah.
Ooh, ooh.
Yeah.
The thing I'm looking for now is this.
Interpretations just totally change the style.
Okay.
If I don't make it there at the time change, it's my fault.
All right.
Da-da-da-da-da-da.
One, two, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Does that seem like good for the time change?
I'm just saying the time change there, okay?
If we had a rhythm section, then we'd be swinging now.
Okay.
Okay, so this is a different feel.
Everybody listen for how the other people are interpreting it.
This one's actually a little harder to play with somebody else,
because it's rather free in the style.
Everybody start on the second bar?
Okay, here we go.
First bar, ready?
One, two, one.
One, two, one, two, one.
One, two, one.
One.
Boy, somebody mark eighth notes there.
Yeah, it'll be bum-ba-dum, bum-bum.
Okay.
Old standard.
Old standard.
Sure.
You wouldn't even think about it.
Whether it's eighth notes or sixteenth notes,
you're going to play it the same way.
Yeah.
Okay, so did everybody understand?
I mean, Tom that time, boy, he was really getting the vibrato, right?
That was that style.
And he kept it all the way through.
And the guys did great doing it all the way through.
And then on the faster part, he couldn't do the style as wildly,
but it was still there, right?
He still kept the same flavor through the thing.
Okay, so anybody else want to play lead on this one?
Bruce, you want to try it?
Just switch over, Bruce.
Let's at least get somebody.
Well, it's always going to be difficult.
Come on.
Okay.
One, two, or one, two, three, four, one.
One.
One, two, one, two, one.
One, two, one.
One.
Okay, good.
Anybody notice a little difference there?
Yeah.
It was actually, he did it a little, not quite as wild as Tom.
And he bit the, yeah.
Yeah.
He really punched those a lot more than Tom did.
We're just doing stuff here.
It's funny, I've learned from other guys in the section,
sometimes I'll be playing something,
I'll hear another guy do it, the way I like it better,
you know, than what I did.
Yeah.
I'll change.
Thanks.
Burly.
That's how you do it.
Yeah, trumpet players, I love them.
Okay.
Let's do the rock tune.
How about that?
Another style.
The more you guys listen, the more you play,
the more records you hear.
How much time have I got?
Am I doing okay?
Okay, whoa, I'll be able to swim tonight.
Anyway, the more records you hear, the more experience you'll get,
and this won't be that big of a deal,
shifting gears and being able to play different things rather fast
will be something a lot easier.
Okay, so this one will be...
Yeah, disco.
Yeah, but this is hip disco.
It's got horns.
One, two, one, two, three, four, one.
Okay, good.
Now, you guys, it's all marked on their parts on the...
Yeah, but it's okay.
Okay, we're going to play this one again.
Second time.
Well, I'm not concerned with playing it up an octave.
They are, but I'm not.
No, just play it the way it's written.
We're just trying to get a different feel here.
Okay, so rock tune, take two.
Okay, we got the under parts have to be a little bit cleaner.
Don't play in the hole.
Ready?
One, two, one, two, three, four, one.
Good.
Okay, that's a different style.
You had three different styles there, all right?
And they just came up and they played it.
And it's just, you're going to be asked to do this stuff.
And any time, whatever he's playing,
the other ones have to play with him, okay?
Kind of got the idea.
Any questions on that?
Yeah?
How much is an arranger to move from player to the second
to have to mark the parts?
Is this marking recognition going to be hard?
Well, I'll tell you.
I've had tunes or charts written out
where there was no articulation at all, which isn't okay.
But then I've had them marked so explicitly
that it actually got in the way of interpreting it.
I can't really, I kind of like little things here and there,
like where to take a breath,
because he's got an idea of he wants this played to this point
and then this point to that point,
and then maybe some long, short notes and stuff like that.
Otherwise, I kind of like him to stay out of my hair
so I can interpret it.
Have you ever had that, Paul?
It was so marked, so precise,
that it actually, it was a stumbling block.
It's like it creates barriers, incredible barriers.
Yeah.
And then, but the opposite is true, too.
You don't just like put up a page.
I had a page where everything was written out,
the notes were written out.
No dynamic markings, no long, short,
no phrasing markings, no nothing.
And that's the point that you've got to play it through
a couple of times.
It was actually a real inexperienced writer,
and he put it up there.
He knew voicings really well,
but he didn't know anything about anything else.
So all we did is I just said,
okay, guys, let's start taking a breath here.
Let's mark this bar.
You know, we're going to do this note long,
this note short.
And as long as he didn't say anything,
everything was cool.
You know, sometimes you have to do that.
Or he'll say, no, I got to do it this way,
and then you mark it.
But it's a little more rare than it is now.
There's some really good writers today,
and they put in the right amount of things
to help you along.
Okay?
Okay, thanks, guys.
Good, good, good.
Okay, so now you've got a little bit of an idea
of how to play playing with others
and having to follow the lead player.
The major points for failure of young players are this.
No experience.
That's something you guys have to handle.
There is a handle for it,
playing in as many community bands,
rehearsal bands,
playing with older players as much as possible,
listening to as many records as possible.
That would be the handle on it.
It's just slightly more difficult
because of the lack of road bands
and opportunities for younger players.
And that's a lot of reasons why contractors will stick
with older players,
not because they have more ability than you do,
but because he just feels safer with them.
He can at least rely on this guy.
He knows he's predictable.
He may not be good, but he's predictable.
Okay, and then the next thing is sound.
This also includes pitch.
You can kind of put it as a sideline.
I'll tell you, if anybody plays in this section with me
and they're slightly off pitch,
I get real bugged
because it takes my attention off of the things that I need to do,
and it puts my attention on to him.
And if anybody asked me
whether I'd like to have him play again or not,
I would probably refrain from having him play with me again.
And a lot of the younger players coming up
don't have enough attention on that,
of blending with you.
Some of the players that are coming up are like lead players
in their high school bands
and lead players in their college bands,
and they never had any concept of playing with anybody else.
The worst players to play with are lead players
that mainly played lead most all their lives.
And if a guy's playing out of tune,
he can wipe me out in five minutes.
I don't care how strong I feel.
He'll wipe me out.
Because you're compensating whether you want to or not.
You're always working real hard at trying to make things right.
You know, a lead trumpet player does that.
I mean, if you've got some out points here
and this pitch is high and this pitch is low,
you kind of like end up being the one that's trying to milk
all this stuff and make a workable sound going out the front.
And it just makes you work very, very hard.
And I would say mainly why people are like this,
why these players are not good players to play with,
is they aren't well-rounded.
That's why I always like doing Claude stuff
because I got to play so many different things.
I got to play etudes.
I got to play technical studies.
I got to play all around the board.
And it made me more well-rounded
so that I had an awareness to play with others
and be able to blend with others.
Now, the leader came back to me
after this guy finished the first half of the show.
We had a small break for a comedian.
And he said, how do we get this guy out of here?
And I said, well, he's hired for three days.
Because he wasn't making at that point
and it was so obvious there was nothing else we could do.
So, make sure you practice, you get well-rounded,
and that will help the endurance.
Now, the major points for success, obviously pitch and sound.
I'd much rather have a guy sitting next to me
missing a few notes here and there,
but having good pitch and a good sound first.
That would be my – that's my criteria.
Matching and blending with the lead, that's very, very important.
And just like I said before, if he distracts me,
then it takes my attention off of what I need to do.
Okay, the next one would be support.
This one's a real tough one.
I like to have a section playing under me
and everybody I've ever talked to
that was an experienced lead player,
they feel like you can sit on these guys.
They, like, carry you along.
You're obviously going to be hurt
because your part's higher than theirs.
And if they follow you and everything's correct,
you feel like you can sit on them.
So when it's, like, time to really get into some heavy-duty stuff,
you can jump on it and they're right there.
I hate the players that, like, if you're going for a big pop,
you know, just like one note here and there,
and he goes like, you know, he doesn't give you any support,
he gives you no foundation,
doesn't help you with any pitch reference or anything like that.
The support needs to be this.
Now, and I'll get tentative.
I mean, if there's a guy sitting next to me that's sucking
instead of blowing, I get real tentative
because it's like I'm real exposed then,
and then it puts my attention, again, on other things
rather than being able to sit back and lay down the chart and interpret it.
The last one would be phrasing.
This just has to do with your ears.
And the whole idea in phrasing is you've got to play
just like the lead player except you're playing a harmony part.
Breath in the same place, loud, soft, bending the sound, whatever it is.
Okay, and then just like notes on observations of lead playing,
the best lead players I ever played with
were ones that actually played in the section two,
because they understood the responsibilities of the section player.
And when they played lead, like, there would be,
there's sometimes a writer will write a resolution.
Like, you'll be holding a note on lead and the resolution will,
you know, it moves up or down or something like that.
And if the lead player is inexperienced
and doesn't realize what the other guys, that they have moving parts,
and he cuts off too soon, it leaves these guys hanging.
Makes it seem real stupid.
And the ones that I've observed that were the better lead players,
that were the ones that knew what their responsibilities were
and were aware of what they were doing,
and it's just everything worked real nice.
It's like, check some balances, okay?
And now we come to the last part.
Any questions to this point?
It's like I don't want to get so complex
and you guys don't have little pieces of tools to go back and work with.
You know, I don't want to overwhelm you. Yeah?
If the lead player is out of tune and you're playing second or third,
you try to go with him a little bit or what?
Okay.
Do we have to have that thing on?
Okay.
Yeah.
I've played with lead players that don't play in tune.
You do the best you can.
Possibly, if he's a fairly sane guy, you can say,
put it in some way that doesn't make him wrong, you know,
because lead players have egos too.
And maybe say, it sounds like you're a little bit high.
You know, if he actually gets the flow, then you're being friendly and helpful,
he'll go, oh, okay, you know, and maybe it'll help.
Otherwise, if he's an arrogant, unexperienced, unskilled,
he'll probably flop you off,
in which case you just do the best you can
and just you still have your responsibility to blend with the lead player.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah, I've done that too.
I actually had, for six years, I had a guy that played next to me
that played out of tune.
I did everything from being very kind.
What he would do is when we had breaks and stuff like that,
I went over to his horn and I'd move his slide.
That's real dicey.
Don't ever, you know, it's just, it got, after six years,
I felt warranted in my actions.
And, but I mean, he was driving me crazy.
And usually in shows like that, you're playing two shows a night,
you're blowing your brains out for at least an hour, 45 minutes,
and I mean, it's hard.
And it was very, very, it's very, very difficult to do that night after night,
six nights a week sometimes, seven nights a week,
and not be affected in some way, you know.
I always give the guy a benefit of a doubt and try to help him around it.
Some people just don't understand.
They don't know what's occurring, or they know what's occurring,
but they don't know what to do about it.
If you guys ever feel like you have pitch problems,
the first thing I want you to do is go to somebody that you respect
or feel comfortable with or feel safe with and ask them,
do I have a pitch problem?
You know, that's the first thing you handle,
because it may be the guy that's complaining about it, okay?
If you feel like there is a legitimate problem,
you can do ear training things like sitting with a piano that's in tune
and just matching pitches.
It's just, it's a matter of duplication with the ear.
Okay?
Yeah?
You mentioned taking your pitch from the bass player,
and you also mentioned meeting the other players in the section for pitch reference.
If you have an upper extension of the chord, like a sharp 11th or something,
are you hearing down the section and trying to tune it to the section,
or are you listening to the root of the chord from the bass player?
Oh, yes.
Oh, yeah!
That's good.
Okay.
I don't know.
No, it's just too much.
I just, you know, that's, I'm usually aware of what other people are playing.
At least that's the way I play. I mean, I can hear what they're doing, and I can hear how they fit in the chord structure.
But it's still their responsibility to listen up to you rather than listening to anybody else in the band.
Sure. Yeah, your job's tough enough, you know, just making sure you take the band.
Boy, I tell you, there's times when you're playing lead, and the conductor's lost, the act's going on,
and sometimes you've just got to come in and just start playing, and the rest of the band will go like,
oh, oh, okay, you know, and then they come along with you. Sometimes it's like you actually handle and save things.
You have to be that on all the time. So, you know, as far as listening like that, I don't think I get quite that deep,
and I don't think I know, oh, I'm on the sharp 11th, and it's slightly...
Well, it could be, you know, I mean, by then it's like bars late, you know.
It depends on how long you hold it.
Yeah. Okay. Now, I'm just going to give you some basic things that you'll see in marking.
When I was young, I knew nothing about marking parts. I knew nothing about what is that on my page.
And it'll help you a lot when you get a chance to play.
You're going to be under pressure enough to try to prove yourself and make sure you keep that gig
and keep getting called back to have any other problems thrown in the air.
So anyway, what I would do, this is what I first did, is like I would sit down in this section,
and then he would say, okay, I'd like some railroad tracks from bar 63 to 129.
And, you know, I'm going like, what? You know, I knew about a cut.
But he's like talking about exactly where it would be marked and then how it's going to be marked.
And how you mark a part sometimes is very important because if you need a sub sometime
or somebody else is going to read the part, make it real clean because you want that same,
you want those guys doing the same thing to you so you can read a chart adequately
and get through it without any like mysteries, right?
So what I would do is like I had my pencil and I'd kind of like, I'd do one of these numbers.
I was real fast about it. That's how I learned. You know? That's how I learned.
And it's, I'll tell you, it's much easier if we get some of these things out of the way today.
Now, at the beginning of the chart you'll see several things.
You can see something like this. You can draw this on the back of your papers. Turn over your papers.
This means start here. And this arrow can be anywhere from the first bar to the 20th bar to the third page.
It doesn't matter. And you see this symbol.
Wherever this arrow is pointing, that's where you're starting that chart. Okay?
Okay.
Another thing that you'll see is DB.
DB does not stand for degraded beam. It stands for downbeat.
Downbeat means the conductor will give you little or nothing in preparation,
maybe a little like you're going right on it when he starts his movement.
Now, in deference to this, sometimes you'll see there will be a count-off.
Sometimes they are marked. Or if you're going through a rehearsal and the leader says,
I'm going to give you four into this tune, do something like this.
You do CO for count-off, and then I mark one, two, three, four.
Or whatever he told me. I mean, it could be, I'm going to give you three, four, and then we're into the first bar.
And just to show you a thing that one might do in more real-life, you can have a thing like this on your chart.
TYMP means tympany. So he's doing like a roll.
So let's say the guy says, okay, I'm giving you a count-off of one, two.
He could say, okay, I'm going to give you a count-off here.
I'm going to give you one, two, and then you come in on three, four.
Something like that. And I'll actually notate it.
If he's going to give me the tympanies going, and he's going to give me one, two,
I put three, four directly over those notes because that's three, that's four.
Okay, and then we've all, I'm going to erase some of this stuff.
Have you guys ever seen stuff like this?
It means something is coming up that quite possibly you might have trouble with.
Okay.
Okay, we've got to mark cards and pencil, okay?
Always mark cards and pencil just in case they're changed.
I forgot to say that. And always carry a pencil. That's even better.
Okay, here's another thing you will see.
The reason I put that up there is I've seen this more than any other figure
in all the music I've ever done.
A stessa means you're going to keep with the same pulse that you're continuing with.
So let's say you've got a double bar here or something like that,
or you're going into something new, or like this is coming out of Hello Dolly
and it's going into T for two or something.
The pulse here, let's say it's like one, two, three, four.
This one goes into two beats per bar.
You keep the same thing with stessa, you keep the same pulse, okay?
One, two, three, four, one, two, one, two, one, two, whatever it is.
The same pulse.
Okay, now a cut. So we've got some music bars here.
And here's how you mark a music cut.
Now these are bars that are being wiped out.
What you do in the end of the bar, this is like a good bar here,
and it says, okay, make a cut from the beginning of bar 63.
So this is like 63, this is 62, okay?
So at the end of 63 you do a double line and you do two slashes like that.
You guys can't see me.
Okay, and then let's say over at 80, 81, the end of bar 81
is where you're going to close this thing.
You take the line, you do it on the inside of these things.
Like that.
That's how you mark a cut in music.
That means this and this are one.
So you're coming along, you're playing bar 62, you immediately play bar 82.
Two next, okay?
Is there any mystery with that?
This is how they're always marked.
Actually, it's an attention thing.
You make a double bar sign and then you do the slashes
kind of like at a 45-degree angle.
Yeah, but the slashes are just part of the double bar that's already there.
No, no, no, you make them, you make them, yeah.
Because I've had marks done in the middle of bars after the first beat of a bar
and then you include the 3-4 or 2-3-4 of some bar a page later.
So that's how you mark them.
Okay, time indications.
This is just a thing, this is for you, this is a tool for you.
If you're going along and there's bars that have hard figures in them
or it's like very syncopated type figures, I'd draw where the beats are.
It's like if this is a bar here, I'll go like there's one, there's two,
there's three, there's four.
I mark where the beats are.
I'd much rather be safe than sorry.
If it's a difficult bar, I'll mark where the beats are
because it'll help me when I get there.
So you can do anything.
You can help with two beats per bar or one beat per bar.
I mark it like that.
If I'm coming into like a listeso and this goes into 3-4
and he's going to do it in one, I'll mark the one slash for four bars
so that while I'm coming up on them, I'm saying,
oh, hey, man, we're going into one here.
Okay?
Is that confusing?
You guys hanging in there?
Okay.
Now, the next thing is if you see this type of a marking,
it means don't play those notes.
The bars are still good.
So if you've got eight bars there or something like that,
the bars are still good, the count is still good.
You just don't play those notes.
And then if you see a note like this,
let's say this is the one note in this bar
and somebody actually circled it, that's the same thing as this.
It's just on a smaller scale.
You just don't play that note.
Yeah?
It's like a rest or you skip it?
Okay.
Let's say you've got the bars coming in here
and like this is a four-bar phrase here, right?
One, two, three, four, and the music keeps going on.
Whereas a cut, a cut wipes out those bars.
You never play them.
They're out of the chart.
This one, these bars are good.
You just aren't going to play.
You've got like 16 notes through this whole thing.
You don't play them.
But the bars are still there.
You just count four bars.
Is that clear?
Okay.
And then at the end of the charts,
especially when playing a show,
this is a real, huh?
Ten minutes?
I see something like this.
Yeah, this means veto subito,
which means if you have to look it up in a music dictionary,
you're lost.
It's already beyond the time.
It's very fast.
You've got to turn the pages very fast.
They're usually done at the end of pages
to notate the fact that you're playing real close,
if not the first bar of the next page.
So you've got to get going.
And veto subito.
Isn't that right?
Are you?
Okay.
Now, this thing serves kind of as the same thing.
You'll see segue.
Through years and years and years,
sometimes segue means the same thing as veto subito,
but usually segue is used in conjunction with
we're going to end this chart
and we go on without too much hesitation.
Sometimes they'll have a pause segue.
Like there'll be a pause,
and then you're right into the next chart.
Okay.
Now, if you're ever reading down a tune,
can I erase this?
Yes, no, maybe, kind of, sort of?
Yes.
Okay.
If you're ever reading down a chart
and you see this little thing written somewhere,
it'll say tilt cut and chord.
What usually happens is you would be playing
probably for an act of some type.
And the act is, you know,
you're waiting for some phenomena to happen
or something like that in the act,
like he throws the girl up and she does three twists
and then lands on his head or something.
Then that's when the leader will cut you off,
and then there'll always be a chord,
and most of the time it's written at the bottom of the page of a chart.
You'll see a little thing like this, you know,
B flat or something like that.
Okay.
Well, I tell you, if you're ever playing along
and you didn't get a chance to, like, run down these charts,
you're just, like, somebody handing you the thing
and you're going through the show,
and you see tilt cut and chord, any chance you get,
find out what the heck the note is,
stick it in your head,
because you don't want to have the conductor go like,
fine, and you're going like, whoa, whoa, wait.
It's like, you've got to know that already.
Okay, and then sometimes you'll see at the end of the chart,
you'll see something that's written like it'll say,
tag or bows.
Now, what that does is at some point near the end of the chart,
let's say 16 bars from the end of the chart or whatever it could be,
somebody wrote tag or bows in that place.
It means you're going to finish out the chart,
and then it's going to be like a reprise.
It's going to be, you're going to play the last few bars
while they stumble off a stage, see?
It's like play on or play off music,
whatever the thing would be.
But anyway, these are metal notes that you log
as you're going through a chart.
And then you guys all know what this one is, right?
Yes, no, maybe kind of sort of?
Yeah?
Okay.
And then DC, what does that mean?
Thank you.
DC.
Yeah, it goes back to the top of the tune, very first bar.
Okay, and I think sometimes you'll see like at the end of a tune,
let's say you come down and here's your last chord,
and then all of a sudden you see two bars drummed,
then DC, you know, like that type of a thing.
What would that mean to you?
Good.
Okay, that's not too bad.
And then the last thing, everybody's seen a photo sign, right?
That's the most common one that I've ever seen.
Are there any others that you want to explain that I haven't thought about?
So we were talking about this before.
Besides the parentheses circling a thing,
I mean, if you circle something with bars,
the next guy coming down doesn't even know.
Because, you know, some people just circle something
if they want to remember to look at it.
And that's not right.
That's a terrible idea.
Got it, got it, okay.
All right.
What can you do to lose it?
Right.
If in circling something, usually something like that,
that means that's out.
The next guy that plays it will never play that.
That's a real common type of thing.
Any time you see something circled, that means it's out.
If you have a problem with it or something like that,
you know, handle it some other place or something like that,
but don't notate things like, hey,
drawing attention to something by circling it,
because that means don't play it.
Okay, so I think that's about all I have today.
Yeah?
You were talking about the stessa.
Yeah.
Would that be the same quarter note equals quarter note?
No, it could be like half note equals quarter note.
Okay.
The whole thing, though, I mean,
that's why I just approached it from saying pulse.
Pulse continues like this.
I mean, if all of a sudden a quarter note equals a half note,
that's, you know, but the pulse stays the same.
Do you understand by pulse?
Yeah.
The beat will never change.
I mean, you get all of a sudden,
you're shifting into like double time just because of the stuff.
Now, before you guys get all tanked up.
Okay, what did you want?
Always use a pillow.
So, okay.
Can we get this stuff off this table,
because I've got a whole bunch of lead books
and trombone books from all the shows,
and then the kids can come up here and take a look at it.
What I have is probably about seven, seven, eight,
or nine lead trumpet books from all the shows in Las Vegas.
Just to give you an idea of what they look like,
and you'll see these markings that I just gave you
to see what's demanded of you.
I've got a couple of trombone things in there, too.
I'll put them over here, and you can come up here,
but only look at them over here, okay?
I don't want you to.
And then this here, you'll see this says,
jovers right on here.
This is like typical of an act in a show,
where you see there's one, there's two, there's three.
Claude talked about this, these cues, okay?
This is one.
We played this until we were cut off.
See, it says play till cut.
There wasn't a chord.
We just played until we were cut.
And then like number two, we had to play that two-bar phrase.
You know, like I think it was like, it was a weird act.
It was like an old lady who was like,
weighed 300 pounds in this guy,
and it was purposely funny in doing,
she was trying to get on top of him and do acrobatic things.
You know, and it was great, but it was like,
we'd have, like they'd have little short bits, right?
And we'd have to go, ba-ba-ba-da, ba-ba-ba-da.
And then we'd be ready for the third one.
And it went on to four, five, and then six was there out.
We'll see six is the same as number one.
That was their play out, okay?
And then it says, until cut and bow.
So what we did is it meant two starts on this thing.
We went through this thing.
They cut us off.
That was the end of their act.
And then for the stage scene,
we just kept playing the same music while they changed the stage for the next act.
So anyway, that's over here, too,
so you can just see what an act would look like, okay?
So I'll set these books up over here.
That'll be it.
Any questions?
Good.
Thank you, Carl.
Carl?
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